As promised, here is a follow up post.
First, a response to the (im)poster, who says the following:
"Quoting Batman, 'Sometimes the truth isn't enough. Sometimes people deserve more than the truth.' The Church agrees with Batman here; it teaches that some things are more important than the truth:
Elder Packer has said, 'There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not...Some things that are true are not very useful.' ("The Mantle is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect")
I gather from this statement that the truth is not always the ultimate reward for someone's faith. That's why the Church teaches 'faith-promoting' history as opposed to true history. I am not saying I agree with this, just that that's how it is."
My response:
It seems inaccurate to call what President Packer describes "more than the truth." Revealing truth "line upon line, precept upon precept" is not the same as lying, which is what Batman referred to when he spoke of "more than the truth." Consider two examples:
First, we teach kindergarten students that 1+1=2. All well and good, but the truth of the proposition "1+1=2" depends on what base number system you're using, as well as on certain postulates of linear algebra. Even that truth that seems most basic is only conditionally true.
Second, let's turn to that great source of wisdom: Return of the Jedi. In it, we have the following conversation:
Luke: Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father.
Obi-Wan: Vader was seduced by the dark side of the force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view.
Luke: A certain point of view?
Obi-wan: Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.
Earlier, speaking with Yoda about the same thing (that Luke learned that Vader was his father), we have:
Yoda: Unexpected this is, and unfortunate.
Luke: Unfortunate that I know the truth?
Yoda: No! Unfortunate that you rushed to face him, that incomplete was your training, that not ready for the burden were you.
I remain convinced that to some degree, we have to choose to believe something before we can know anything. And I remain steadfast in the faith that, as the hymn says, "all now mysterious shall be bright at last."
This post also having gotten long, my final point will have to wait for part III.
7 comments:
I think that when God is in charge we can have truth and justice prevail. In the Dark Knight we see that sometimes when humans are in control, truth must rob justice or vice versa. We humans are commanded to choose the greater good. Sometimes, that means that we must make difficult decisions. For example, if a rapist/murderer with a lust for female flesh comes to your door and asks if there are any women in the household, you say, “No.” You do this because the greater good is to protect the lives and innocence of the women in your household at the expense of truth. A similar situation occurred in the Dark Knight. It was either lying to the people or releasing back to the people evil crime lords. Batman and Comm. Gordon chose the greater good. As I said, if God were in control, he would have punished the guilty (justice) and not had to of lied to the people. In this imperfect world (ours and in the Dark Knight’s fantasy world) this is not always possible. However, with an eternal perspective, we learn that in real life, justice will eventually claim criminals who get off because of an imperfect system of laws.
Obi-wan told Luke something which he knew was only true in a figurative sense but which he stated in a way which made it seem to be intended literally.
There's a word for that:
Lying.
And if the Church does the same it's actions deserve to go by the same name.
As for the theme of THE DARK KNIGHT, its all about the issue of nihilism.
The Joker shows us, in blatant and unapologetic form, a side of ourselves which we don't usually admit exists---even in our private thoughts.
That, like the Joker, theres a part of us that "just wants to watch the world burn".
The dynamic involved in seeing that hidden side of ourselves revealed so forcefully and openly in Ledger's performance as the Joker is, I think, the secret to the movie's enormous success and wide appeal.
Wow, did you have that whole RotJ dialogue memorized? No matter how you spin it, Obi Wan deceived Luke.
When Elder Packer says that some truths are not very important, he is NOT talking about "milk before meat" or "line upon line" he is talking about omitting certain truths because they are not faith-promoting. He is NOT instructing CES teachers to teach milk now and meat later; he is telling them to never teach unflattering aspects of church history.
Batman does the same thing: he instructs Gordon to tell the people that he killed the innocents, not Dent. He does not instruct Gordon to tell the people this now and then later give them the truth.
Exactly, and in doing so, the Joker wins the ideological debate with Batman.
Batman shows that, ultimately, he agrees that people's hold on goodness and decency is all too tenuous.
Personally, I found this one of the most unconvincing aspects of the plot---much like the ham-handed attempt to turn Luke to the dark side in RETURN OF THE JEDI.
Especially since the people had so ably demonstrated their strength in the two ships.
In the end, the film-makers seem to create a serious thematic problem in the story for the sake of setting up the next movie (where presumably Batman will be hunted by the authorities for murder).
For the sake of not continuing this as another post, I'll put up a couple of points here.
First, I'm perfectly willing to call Obi-wan's actions "lying." I'm not really concerned about the rightness or wrongness of that lying for my present purpose; I brought up the conversation to use his language asserting that truth is conditional. I suppose I could have avoided the rest of that exchange; I mostly put it in for context. I'm unaware of the Church doing materially the same thing as Obi-wan, though.
Second, I don't think President Packer is against people knowing things that are unflattering to the Church. He instructs CES teachers not to teach those things because teaching them reduces the teachers' efficiency in pursuing their goal: to help all the students better follow Christ. When God tells us that all will be revealed in time, I think He means "all": the good, the bad, and the ambiguous.
Finally, I think the Joker's contention is not only that that side of us exists, but that only it is real; morality is but a fragile shield against it. If that's his argument, the Joker does not fully win. Batman, through it all, shows himself incorruptible (reference brett bubbles' illustration of how lying is not necessarily immoral). While many--even most--people may have a tenuous hold on morality, morality is not in itself a weak thing to hold onto. If firmly grasped, it can be a firm defense forever.
I guess we'll just have to disagree on the meaning of Elder Packer's words; however, I do love these Dark Knight posts, keep them coming!
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